Curse

Flounder911 · Mar 17, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Ok, well let me just start off by saying that my origional, first character was a necromancer, who i loved (curses mainly)

but i took a very long break with university being hectic, and now that i have the time i went out and bought factions, and nightfall (no Eye of the north)

From what i have read on the forums there are ALOT of people saying human MM's are no longer good but instead its much better to run a "hero MM / Bomber"
- first question... I have read about the new "Hero" henchmen but where do i get them lol (factions / nightfall ? )
- How do i make them a MM build? do they come with preset skill bars or something?

Are human MM's still ok to play??

What new campaign would be the best to start for a human MM ? i assume that nightfall would be best (my thinking is that it is the latest campaign therefore will have the most new skills.... but please correct me if im wrong)

What campaign is the best for gaining access to heros ?

Not looking for builds, i can make them through playing the game lol, just any advice would be great

thanks in advance

-Flounder911-

Bong Bro Zac · Mar 17, 2009, 01:02 AM // 01:02

reasons people say hero MMs are better than humans is because they have a very quick exploit AI, and heros are great at multi tasking. EX)Olias has no problems keeping a full minion army, spamming splinter on the melee, and (in my case) using discord on appropriate foes. i used sabway with discord on my MM cause i find all MM elites underpowered (except maybe AotL which in my experience heros do not use to full effect)

if your wanting to try MM i would say NF or maybe factions as many beginner human MM love flesh golem i would say look at wiki and the skills from each campaign cause i dont remember :/

Kerwyn Nasilan · Mar 17, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bong Bro Zac

i find all MM elites underpowered

[jagged bones] says high

FoxBat · Mar 17, 2009, 01:38 AM // 01:38

First you need to understand that being bad/lazy has become a part of PvE strategy. Why try to interrupt fast casting HM bosses when you can just daze them. Why micro a tank-n-spank when you can mindlessly AFK sabway. etc. Human MM players are only as bad as your inability to pick minions out with alt and put death nova on them. While heroes are more "efficient" in that they will pick out low-health targets to nova faster than humans trying to read the health bars, humans can be more "aggressive" by bombing things with taste of pain or whatever as fast as the nova goes up- or pre-novaing big damage before it comes in just like you'd preprot. Which is better depends on the corpse avaliability in the area.

Second there's a variety of MM that heroes are terrible at: Order of Undeath buffing bone fiends. They are just all around terrible at managing this build. It also fills a sightly different road then the punching bags jagged bones makes. But you get some good barbs support and the damage output can be tremendous. You can also have some fun with the new Aura of the Lich, although not hard to micro on heroes, they will not use it all that intelligently if you leave it up to them.

The real issue though is that heroes are pretty dumb about where to put curses, not necessarily sticking MoP or barbs where the minions are going, and putting SS on the called target that's going to die soon anyway. And this isn't to speak of the new Assassin's Promise builds that abuse pve skills + mark of pain spam, something else heroes can't do. So you get "optimal" performance by playing that role most likely.

Jongal · Mar 17, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

As others mentioned: It all depends on your ability to maintain [Death Nova] and [Jagged Bones] on as many minions as possible. Heros are quite good at that.

But you can always choose a different elite and put [[Death Nova] on a Necro hero, maybe with [Discord] and [Putrid Bile].

Oh and to get Heros, just play the Nightfall story line.

[DE] · Mar 17, 2009, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Of course human MM's are viable.

But why would you want to play such a bitchwork bar when you can just throw it off onto a hero that can do the skillset decent justice?

Lord Of Blame · Mar 17, 2009, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

First you need to understand that being bad/lazy has become a part of PvE strategy. Why try to interrupt fast casting HM bosses when you can just daze them. Why micro a tank-n-spank when you can mindlessly AFK sabway. etc. Human MM players are only as bad as your inability to pick minions out with alt and put death nova on them. While heroes are more "efficient" in that they will pick out low-health targets to nova faster than humans trying to read the health bars, humans can be more "aggressive" by bombing things with taste of pain or whatever as fast as the nova goes up- or pre-novaing big damage before it comes in just like you'd preprot. Which is better depends on the corpse avaliability in the area.

Second there's a variety of MM that heroes are terrible at: Order of Undeath buffing bone fiends. They are just all around terrible at managing this build. It also fills a sightly different road then the punching bags jagged bones makes. But you get some good barbs support and the damage output can be tremendous. You can also have some fun with the new Aura of the Lich, although not hard to micro on heroes, they will not use it all that intelligently if you leave it up to them.

The real issue though is that heroes are pretty dumb about where to put curses, not necessarily sticking MoP or barbs where the minions are going, and putting SS on the called target that's going to die soon anyway. And this isn't to speak of the new Assassin's Promise builds that abuse pve skills + mark of pain spam, something else heroes can't do. So you get "optimal" performance by playing that role most likely.

^^^^What he said.

You get heroes in NF and EoTN. So in your case go to NF and start getting you some heroes.

Chthon · Mar 17, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flounder911

first question... I have read about the new "Hero" henchmen but where do i get them lol (factions / nightfall ? )

Various quests in Nightfall and EotN.

Quote:

How do i make them a MM build? do they come with preset skill bars or something?

You give them a minion bomber build, a decent death magic weapon, and a Sup death magic rune.

For a minion bomber build, start with this:
[jagged bones][death nova][infuse condition][foul feast][dwayna's sorrow][animate bone minions][animate bone fiend][dark bond]

Quote:

Are human MM's still ok to play??

Yes. And they are vastly superior to hero minion bombers. Anyone who tells you differently is an idiot. The damage output on a build based around [animate bone fiend][order of undeath][ebon battle standard of honor] is just off-the-charts better than anything a hero can do.

Quote:

What new campaign would be the best to start for a human MM ?

Probably Nightfall. It has OoU and most of the basic MM skills. EotN also has a couple of skills that should be stapled to any MM bar.

Quote:

What campaign is the best for gaining access to heros ?

Nightfall and EotN both give heroes at about the same rate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

The real issue though is that heroes are pretty dumb about where to put curses, not necessarily sticking MoP or barbs where the minions are going, and putting SS on the called target that's going to die soon anyway. And this isn't to speak of the new Assassin's Promise builds that abuse pve skills + mark of pain spam, something else heroes can't do. So you get "optimal" performance by playing that role most likely.

This is true. The step up from curse hero to curse player is larger than the step up from MB hero to MM player. If your party only has 1 human necro, you usually gain more by putting them in the curse role.

draxynnic · Mar 17, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

In my experience...

It depends on the build. A lot of the 'classic' MM builds are pretty mindless, and while, with the possible exception of minion bomber builds, a human player can probably run them better, the difference isn't that big, and sooner or later you'll probably grow bored of doing nothing but maintaining the swarm.

Hybrid builds mixing some direct offense (usually from the Death line) with some minion generation can be fun, however. I haven't tried the Fiends/OoU/EBSoH combination yet (my Necro hasn't done the Vanguard storyline yet, and may be my last non-mule/permapre to do so) but the potential frankly scares me.

Flounder911 · Mar 17, 2009, 02:56 AM // 02:56

so i just get heros and change their skills? do they come with all the skills needed already? i dont have to get them somehow ?

can they automatically be changed to necromancer primary? or how would i go abouts changing a hero to necro primary? if possible

ac1inferno · Mar 17, 2009, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Human MMs work, but heroes do it better.

snaek · Mar 17, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

well to present a new outlook...i think i can recall maybe 3 or 4 ai bugfix updates within the last year or so, specifically geared to fixing whack behaviour of hero mm's.

Osi Ri S · Mar 17, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

[animate bone fiend][order of undeath][ebon battle standard of honor]

I was about to mention this. I saw Carinae running it the other day and decided to try it out. I was hitting 60-80s on enemies consistently. One edge that humans have over heros when MMing is the pvE skills (obviously) when you use them like in the example above, they just make humans way superior heros when MMing.

SpiritThief · Mar 17, 2009, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flounder911

so i just get heros and change their skills? do they come with all the skills needed already? i dont have to get them somehow ?

can they automatically be changed to necromancer primary? or how would i go abouts changing a hero to necro primary? if possible

There's to two to three of every class wroth of heroes. Most with NF then some with Eye of the north. There's a few for having prop and factions on your account too.

Their primary is locked in. You can change there second at will. The skills they have all the ones you have unlocked for your account. So all your old N skills, a N hero or any hero with a /N will have all those. You'll get hero skill points *that you can't check* to unlock some skills here and there in NF. Otherwise whatever you unlock with any character, or thru pvp faction will be unlocked for all heroes.

Sadly heroes take loot, and yet you still have to give them better weapons and runes.

Cebe · Mar 17, 2009, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flounder911

so i just get heros and change their skills? do they come with all the skills needed already? i dont have to get them somehow ?

Heroes come with about 5 skills + Resurrection Signet. These skills are often fairly random and don't go especially well together.

Heroes can use any skill unlocked on your account.

There are 4 ways to unlock skills on your account:

1. Balthazar Faction at a Priest of Balthazar.

2. Buying the skill on one of your own characters.

3. Unlocking the skill at a Hero Skill Trainer.

4. Capping a skill via a Signet of Capture from a boss.

You can only unlock hero skills at a hero skill trainer if you acquire Hero Skill points, gained by increasing in levels in the Sunspear, Lightbringer, or Eye of the North Reputation title tracks. You can check how many Hero Skill Points you have by speaking to Hero Skill Trainers.

For basic Hero related questions, please refer to the Stickied Hero Guide.

You can't change a Hero's primary profession. There are 2 or 3 heroes for each profession, a list of which can be found here. Most are unlocked as part of the main storyline or via a quest. M.O.X. (A Dervish Hero) can be obtained by walking outside of Kaineng Center, Lion's Arch or Kamadan however.

Xenomortis · Mar 17, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Human MMs work, but heroes do it better.

Have you read any of the comments regarding [Order of Undeath]?
At least validate your statements.

When it comes to a minion bombing build and general minion micro, heroes will usually outperform a human (particularly at minion bombing) - a human will struggle to maintain the necessary enchantments on the minions whilst moving and casting stuff like [Blood of the Master]. Spamming Death Nova gets dull too.

When it comes to something like Order of Undeath, a human will usually do much better than a hero. A good human will be able to manage their energy and health well enough to allow good coverage with OoU - that, coupled with the stupid PvE skills means a hero just cannot keep up.

ac1inferno · Mar 18, 2009, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Have you read any of the comments regarding [Order of Undeath]?
At least validate your statements.

When it comes to a minion bombing build and general minion micro, heroes will usually outperform a human (particularly at minion bombing) - a human will struggle to maintain the necessary enchantments on the minions whilst moving and casting stuff like [Blood of the Master]. Spamming Death Nova gets dull too.

When it comes to something like Order of Undeath, a human will usually do much better than a hero. A good human will be able to manage their energy and health well enough to allow good coverage with OoU - that, coupled with the stupid PvE skills means a hero just cannot keep up.

Yes, a human can run [[Order of Undeath], but I find that heroes are capable of running Order of Undeath well too. It's just that minion bombing is better and the heroes can do that. So why would you choose to run something less effective and not just let the hero manage the [[Death Nova]s?

The only MM build I find heroes incapable of running on their own is [[Aura of the Lich]. They do not use in outside of battle to keep up an army unless micro'ed to. If left on their own, they would only use it in battle.

Carinae · Mar 18, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Yes, a human can run [[Order of Undeath], but I find that heroes are capable of running Order of Undeath well too. It's just that minion bombing is better and the heroes can do that. So why would you choose to run something less effective and not just let the hero manage the [[Death Nova]s?

It's not even close. [Animate Bone Fiend][Order of Undeath][Ebon Battle Standard of Honor] deals HUGELY more damage than a Minion Bomber, and no, heroes cannot run OoU well at all.

Battle sequence:

[Blood of the Master] then [Order of Undeath] then [Ebon Battle Standard of Honor] then [Blood of the Master] then [Blood of the Master] then [Order of Undeath] then [Blood of the Master] then [Animate Bone Fiend] then [Blood of the Master] then [Animate Bone Fiend] then [Blood of the Master] then [Order of Undeath] .....

No, heroes can't run that sequence, or anything close to it in terms of DPS.

Chthon · Mar 18, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flounder911

so i just get heros and change their skills? do they come with all the skills needed already? i dont have to get them somehow ?

can they automatically be changed to necromancer primary? or how would i go abouts changing a hero to necro primary? if possible

I was going to answer this for you, but SpiritThief and Cebe already posted excellent answers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osi Ri S

I was about to mention this. I saw Carinae running it the other day and decided to try it out. I was hitting 60-80s on enemies consistently. One edge that humans have over heros when MMing is the pvE skills (obviously) when you use them like in the example above, they just make humans way superior heros when MMing.

Yep. With max vanguard rank, you get +32 on every minion hit. Damage-wise, it's like having 10 little dragon slashers running around. Even when monster armor goes way up in HM, you still get very good damage since the +32 in armor-ignoring. I find you usually hit at least ~50 even against well-armored things in HM.

draxynnic · Mar 18, 2009, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpiritThief

Their primary is locked in. You can change there second at will. The skills they have all the ones you have unlocked for your account. So all your old N skills, a N hero or any hero with a /N will have all those. You'll get hero skill points *that you can't check* to unlock some skills here and there in NF. Otherwise whatever you unlock with any character, or thru pvp faction will be unlocked for all heroes.

Unless I'm misinterpreting, there is a way to check - when you visit a hero skill trainer, they'll tell you how many points you have in the paragraph of text above the list of classes you can unlock skills for.

(It's worth mentioning that unlocking a skill at a hero skill trainer teaches it to the unlocking character as well, so it's also a good way to build up skills for your actual character without having to pay 1k a pop.)